Do You Remember The Humble Brown Paper Bag?
I don*t understand it, the UK haven*t had plastic bags since 1985 (or thereabouts). Well you can get buy them, but they cost (back then) about 6pence to buy just one. Let*s say about 20 to 25 cents EACH! A great deterrent.
Further good news from the UK too, where a major supermarket (Marks & Spencer), has announced a $400 million plan to become pioneers in more *carbon neutral* initiatives within the supermarket itself, starting with light bulbs and the such. Not to be outdone, another UK giant, Tesco has taken on the challenge too, also deciding to up the ante with a $980 million plan to fight climate change with energy~saving light bulbs in all their stores, as well as the no plastic bag policy.
But wait, you want more? Well Tesco are also claiming to be amongst the first to implement a *Carbon Footprint Rating* system onto their labels too, advising shoppers of things like which products are shipped by air, so you can choose locally grown greener alternatives over imports.
I think most of us have already decided we would pay a few cents more to see this implemented in all our local supermarkets, and that*s a good thing. . . but what about the home delivery business . . how are they going to get around the need for plastic bags?
I phoned Coles On line Office HQ and asked them that same question.
The answer?
...um... not sure yet what we*re going to do because they cannot recycle the green bags, why? well because people have different ideas on standards of hygiene and what could well serve as good litigation fodder for the Hollywood dreamers. ($$$) Too risky by far and rightly so.
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So, what about just wrapping things in newspaper like in other places in Asia, India and Africa and the like? Works fine there? No, no good either because we have become too preserved and homogenised in the west and our systems could not cope anymore with all those air borne bacteria.. . just more litigation!
What about vegetables wrapped in cellophane to stop the people who now inject poison into food because they are .. what? Mad? I am not sure what to make of them? What about having to buy three cucumbers because they have been cling-warped together, instead of just one?
Shrink-wrapped coconuts seem superfluous too, don*t they?
No, that obviously won*t work.
Back to the Future for the Paper Bag?
Europe has had a plastic bag tax for some years and in 2005, French ministers adopted a law banning non-biodegradable plastic bags from 2010.
What about Australia?
Is it really going to be as simple as re implementing the old brown paper bag of the 70s?
Could it really be that simple?
What else do you think they could do?
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No plastic bags were harmed during pre-production.
I can see it now. Protesters outside the premiere waving paper bags. People trying to burn plastic bags and finding they just melt all over their shoes.
I wonder if we could digitally alter the film to make the plastic bags look like paper bags. In order to reach a broader audience.
On a serious note though? I often wonder if paper bags went out of fashion due to environmentalists complaining about how many trees were used. Then they introduced the plastic bag, and now environmentalists are faced with a worse situation. I'd be interested to know the real reason why paper bags went out of fashion. You see this cyclical thing all the time in the name of change. Eventually they change back to the thing they got rid of.
I'd also like to know exactly what plastic is. I mean how do they make a plastic bag? Who invented the damn thing?
My green bags are better but I can't reuse them in the peddle bin. I reuse the plastic fantastics in my peddle bin. If not reused shopping bags, then what will I use? I'd still have to buy plastic bags to do the same job.
So my real problem is that every way that I turn I end up being a planet killer.
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This much we agree on and I cannot understand why the Whites and Wongs, cannot storm the Garretts (office) and make a firm stand on this very thing. Maybe Johnny made a deal and we have to keep buying Europe*s plastic bags in exchange for cheap Pfeizer medications or something. God knows.
But I agree because whilst I lived in the UK for those two years without a single piece of plastic crossing the checkout counter, I realised how unnecessary they truly are. Everyone
I know what you mean about the plastic floating around the ocean, I watched a doco on it and it is all caught in a current eddy or something, swirling about the Pacific ocean, the size of Hawaii !?!*#!!
They could make the trays available at a cost of about $4 each and then perhaps you return then the next week . . a lot of paperwork though?
Thanks for your suggestion.
Lilla . .
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I have always thought that myself, yet digging a little deeper I found out a couple unsavoury truths. You*ll guess the first one easily enough . . the cost of production and then secondly, the very real issue for environmetnalists of more gasses and methane in the atmosphere as they break down they release toxins, which also leech into the water table.
I believe it was back to the drawing board on that one too.
Great suggestion though because when they work out a way to get them to degrade without the chemical spill, it will be fantastic. Agreed.
Thanks for the input.
Lilla . .
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Tesco only this week announced record quarterly profits so banning them hasn't heart them at all financially. People eating in must have helped their profits and I am glad to say helped save the planet.
PS I always noticed in American movies that they always seem to have the big brown paper bags when they do grocery shopping. It might be just in the movies. but didn't they ever turn to plastic bags?
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Back when I was just a lad I remember grocery stores and the then government saying that the paper bag would be phased out because of the amount of deforestation taking place . . . about the same time that there was also a world oil shortage and we were being told that by the mid-80's that we would all have to rely on alternate forms of fuel.
Rationing and fuel being stolen from the tanks of cars in shopping centres was commonplace.
Heard an interesting interview from property and commercial developers a few weeks ago though with regards to the amount of plastic bags beind disposed of and the concerns many had with the non-biodegradable nature of them.
A point each of the developers made was they advocated their use - because the bags didn't break down.
Their arguement was that when developers and govt were trying to house the increasing numbers by reclaiming land fill areas - they didn't want the breakdown of the soil and land mass - and that the bags (and other plastics) provided a stable base for and indefinite time.
Right or wrong - it was just another perspective.
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Mistersmith,
No, but you did jog my memory about writing this post (which slipped my mind during the recent inquisition). However now that you mention it, making your bag lady carry paper bags may appeal to the *green* demographic too and make for bigger box office returns?
((too funny)) but something to consider perhaps if you don*t want those plastic bag waving protestors polluting the red carpet line up on premiere night, although bad publicity is still publicity, is it not?
((giggling now)) somebody stop me, i have comedy sketches appearing of your premiere red carpet gala night . .
/But seriously/, I think you are onto something about environmentalists banning them in the first place, being only a humble housewife I don*t know, but the absolute irony of course being, the ability of paper bags to degrade quicker than anything else in the rain and without any toxic fumes or chemical spills, which is what is baffling them today in making plastic biodegradably (is that a word?) affordable! Sheesh.
How true is that!
Anyway, I*ve decided that no trees would have to be cut down in today*s political eco climate of Peter Garretts Office, they could make enough for two centuries of paper bags from all the pristine recycled A4 letterhead and photocopied minutes of meetings that is chucked out each time he or Penny gets it Wong. Or another polly changes their mind, or room number; better still the whole cabinet gets a reshuffle and three forests would otherwise disappear. This way Coles and Woolworths could be stocked for years! I won*t bore you with the statistics of just how much paper is shredded for landfill during the changeover of governments and internal shuffles, because it may cause another aneurism (mine).
Here*s what I know about how plastic from my obligatory google and my visit to www.freedomplasticbags.com (ever noticed how commercial names always say the exact opposite to what the product delivers?). I do .
It seems that the process starts with a resin that feeds into an extruding machine. As the resin is fed through a heated screw, it is forced to mix and melt to a liquid state. The screw forces the melted resin through a die forcing it into a tube. Blowing air through the centre of the die ring expands the tube, sometimes called a bubble (much like blowing up a balloon). The amount of air and speed in which the tube travels up a tower determines the size and thickness of the plastic. The bubble travels up a tower to cool the melted plastic. Once cooled, the bubble is flattened and travels down the tower through a set of rollers. When the plastic reaches the bottom, it is wound on a large roll.
*tongue in cheek* now that sounds like some ride, doesn*t it, and now that I am en x~spurt on this subject , I can tell you *ergm clearing my throat .. that : these days *the Resin* is created through polymerization , a process in which a chemical reaction links together monomers to form a polymer. Some of these (like Polypropylene (PP))is a light, durable thermoplastic containing polymers of propylene, a colorless, combustible gas found in petroleum. Etc.,
I could*t find a video of what a plastic bag factory looks like, when all that blowing and stretching and rolling is going on, along on those little roller conveyer belt thingo*s. Which is a little disappointing
You just reminded me that I had planned to take the kids up to the ginger factory here on the Sunshine Coast, which I am told is absolutely fascinating, and yummy I s*pose . . but I digress (again) ..
Now according to www.About.com/Inventors : The first man-made plastic was created by Alexander Parkes who publicly demonstrated it at the 1862 Great International Exhibition in London (can you imagine the audible Awes and Aahs?) They called this magic material Parkesine. Of course it was an organic material back then, derived from cellulose that once heated, could be molded, and retained its shape when cooled.
I believe that hemp fibres were added and they even fashioned a car and hairbrushes out of this stuff that was tuff and lasted for years, until the earty 1930s when some senator had some investments in the nylon factory and the smear campaign to demonise hemp began its long history of deterioration, but at one time hempropes were the only ropes to hold ships like the Titanic, etc.,
but I digress [again] . . as usual . . and to continue my very interesting lecture on plastic adn how we can have movies today . . because;
Next came Celluloid, which was derived from cellulose and alcoholised camphor. John Wesley Hyatt invented celluloid as a substitute for the ivory in billiard balls in 1868. He first tried using collodion a natural substance, after spilling a bottle of it and discovering that the material dried into a tough and flexible film. However, the material was not strong enough to be used as a billiard ball, until the addition of camphor, a derivative of the laurel tree. This new celluloid could be moulded with heat and pressure into a durable shape as well.
Besides billiard balls, celluloid became famous as the first flexible photographic film used for still photography and motion pictures. John Wesley Hyatt created celluloid in a strip format for movie film. By 1900, movie film was an exploding market for celluloid.
Next came the start of serious stuff, like cellulose nitrate, introducing some nice deadly substances like formaldehyde to *advance* the technology of plastic. Around 1897, efforts to manufacture white chalkboards led to casein plastics (milk protein mixed with formaldehyde) Galalith and Erinoid are two early tradename examples.
In 1899, Arthur Smith received British Patent 16,275, for "phenol-formaldehyde resins for use as an ebonite substitute in electrical insulation", the first patent for processing a formaldehyde resin. However, in 1907, Leo Hendrik Baekeland improved phenol-formaldehyde reaction techniques and invented the first fully synthetic resin to become commercially successful, trade named Bakelite.
Here*s what the Pre Plastic timeline looks like Chronologically.
1839 - Natural Rubber - method of processing invented by Charles Goodyear
1843 - Vulcanite - Thomas Hancock
1843 - Gutta-Percha - William Montgomerie
1856 - Shellac - Alfred Critchlow, Samuel Peck (French polish made from resin mixed with insect wings)
1856 - Bois Durci - Francois Charles Lepag
Timeline - Beginning of the Plastic Era with Semi Synthetics
1839 - Polystyrene or PS discovered - Eduard Simon
1862 - Parkesine - Alexander Parkes
1863 - Cellulose Nitrate or Celluloid - John Wesley Hyatt
1872 - Polyvinyl Chloride or PVC - first created by Eugen Baumann
1894 - Viscose Rayon - Charles Frederick Cross, Edward John Bevan
Timeline - Thermosetting Plastics and Thermoplastics
1908 - Cellophane - Jacques E. Brandenberger
1909 - First true plastic Phenol-Formaldehyde tradenamed Bakelite
- Leo Hendrik Baekeland 1926 - Vinyl or PVC - Walter Semon invented a plasticized PVC.
1927 - Cellulose Acetate
1933 - Polyvinylidene chloride or Saran also called PVDC - accidentally discovered by Ralph Wiley, a Dow Chemical lab worker.
1935 - Low-density polyethylene or LDPE - Reginald Gibson and Eric Fawcett
1936 - Acrylic or Polymethyl Methacrylate
1937 - Polyurethanes tradenamed Igamid for plastics materials and Perlon for fibers. - Otto Bayer and co-workers discovered and patented the chemistry of polyurethanes
1938 - Polystyrene made practical
1938 - Polytetrafluoroethylene or PTFE tradenamed Teflon - Roy Plunkett
1939 - Nylon and Neoprene
1926 - Vinyl or PVC - Walter Semon invented a plasticized PVC.
1927 - Cellulose Acetate
1933 - Polyvinylidene chloride or Saran also called PVDC - accidentally discovered by Ralph Wiley, a Dow Chemical lab worker.
1935 - Low-density polyethylene or LDPE - Reginald Gibson and Eric Fawcett
1936 - Acrylic or Polymethyl Methacrylate
1937 - Polyurethanes tradenamed Igamid for plastics materials and Perlon for fibers. - Otto Bayer and co-workers discovered and patented the chemistry of polyurethanes
1938 - Polystyrene made practical
1938 - Polytetrafluoroethylene or PTFE tradenamed Teflon - Roy Plunkett
1939 - Nylon and Neoprene
considered a replacement for silk and a synthetic rubber respectively Wallace Hume Carothers 1941 - Polyethylene Terephthalate or Pet - Whinfield and Dickson
1942 - Low Density Polyethylene
1942 - Unsaturated Polyester also called PET patented by John Rex Whinfield and James Tennant Dickson
1951 - High-density polyethylene or HDPE tradenamed Marlex - Paul Hogan and Robert Banks
1951 - Polypropylene or PP - Paul Hogan and Robert Banks
1953 - Saran Wrap introduced by Dow Chemicals.
1954 - Styrofoam the trademarked form of polystyrene foam insulation, invented by Ray McIntire for Dow Chemicals
1964 - Polyimide
1970 - Thermoplastic Polyester this includes trademarked Dacron, Mylar, Melinex, Teijin, and Tetoron
1978 - Linear Low Density Polyethylene
1985 - Liquid Crystal Polymers h.
I don*t know which one of these makes up the supermarket bag variety, your guess is as good as mine.
That was a great response and question.
Thank you.
Lilla . .
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You and me both
Ooh *chuckle* who can*t remember picking up groceries all the way up the landing to their top floor unit, realising the bottom of the bags had fallen out, after trudging home in the rain from the bus stop. Aah the sweet memories of my youth and singledom.
But do you know, I would trade all the plastic in this world to have those bags back, and especially if they were now made from recycled paper instead, like my toilet paper. . . *chuckle* yes but maybe a little stronger. Agreed.
How much simpler in India Hey? Just ingeniously roll it up in a strip of yesterdays newspaper and off you go. As for the street vendors who call daily with the days vegetables, no packaging needed at all. It is hard ot *fit in* to the waste here in the west, after living such a simple life elsewhere.
However, like you, I like my green bags too and as far as the problem with the home deliveries goes, I think they will be the way to go and it will be up to the delivery guys to check whether they are clean or not. A simple box, noting the number of bags returned, can be quickly scribbled on the paper work too, eliminating lengthier processes of deposits and returns of trays etc?
I am really curious as to where they take it, truly.
I agree we are all planet killers, but not by choice anymore Damo, more so because we have been forced up the scale to where we are, by the real culprits. Good to see though, that more and more people are waking up to it, too.
Rest easy my friend and thanks for the suggestions.
Lilla . .
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Ooh and not just paper bags, medications and (somedays it seems) everything that is progressive towards a better, cleaner, greener, more environmentally harmonious future. Whilst buying up everything the rest of the world sells (all its rubbish), our government lapping it up because it is cheap.
Canada has banned the normal lightbulb too by 2012 and I could list a dozen other countries banning a dozen other things too, but not here, as you say.
I reckon you get what you pay for and can remember all that kafuffle hen America offloaded all those faulty cheapo heart valves to Australia a few years back. Not to mention all that *ergonomic* furniture that crippled all our office workers in the 80*s . . when oh when will Australian governments stand up and say *NO we don*t Need to lick your boots to trade.* Honestly, I don*t think the world takes us seriously yet, is it because we truly are apathetic or is it because they see us as *young* : without culture and true intellect/direction yet?
Well if it is, we*d better start to take notice and have a care of who we vote in and why. . I*ll stop there.
You hit the nail on the head. Exactly, in fact more people would be likely to shop where they felt they were helping their future. It*s not that people don*t want to, but the government still act like jailers sometimes and treat us like idiots.
Interesting point about the brown bags still shown in Us Movies. .. Shame indeed that Miss Wunderlust isn*t still with us, or Wendi, both were from the States and would pop in and educate us on the truth of these things.
Maybe S.L. could grace us with the answer to this Mystery?
Anyone out there in the US who can answer r this question, please do drop in.
NEVAR and John Doe, do they use plastic or brown paper bags up your Way, would appreciate the information?
Thanks Janet, an interesting angle.
Lilla . .
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That IS one for the tumblers. A wonderful perspective to say the least. Something useful out of a potential disaster? Wonderful.
It would be interesting to discover the truth about methane (and other) gasses in the natural life cycle of the modern land fill breakdown : you know. The stages of degradation and reclamation. As I understand it the current plastic bag has a half life of about 25 to 30 years and then they start to leach the gasses (I guess its because propelyene is partly made from petroleum gasses in the first place?), added perhaps to a further few years to bubble to the surface?
I guess then that the risk here is not a short term one and I don*t doubt investers would risk it long term for short term profit? Woudl they care about the consequences in 30, 50 or 70 years time, if *something* awful would start to bubble up through the blades of grass?
I think that time period would put anyone outside the risks of litigation?
I thought I read something about children getting sick in a school field somwhere in the ACT (or nearby city of Quenbeyan) just last year, because it had been built on top of such a landfill site from years and years ago. They suspected that *things* were oozing up from the depths . . sounded ominous and I never heard what happened (I should chase it up).
The thing is, I am wary too because although I am only a simple housewife, my logic cannot compute landfill being *stable* . . what happens when the bags of garbage melt back down to oil and resins and gasses, wouldn*t they leave holes in the earth of where they were?
Okay I know, now I sound cynical (you knew I would, right?) : true enough, but not too cynical to hope with all my heart that its really a possibility. It will be interesting to see how this new find pans out over the coming decade or so, where the new developers build. Although personally, I wouldn*t live on an old landfill site anymore than I would under powerlines. I suspect they*ll put malls or cheap housing in these places as always. .
Thanks for the alternative view, much appreciated.
Lilla . .
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I really don*t know, I haven*t bought a bin liner since plastic was invented and I avoid people who use them as much as I do women in real fur coats.
SKIPE 2 is from the UK, mnaybe he*ll drop by and let us know, or you could PM him.
I agree it would be insane if they did still sell them, wouldn*t it?
But I bet they do, because we all know profit and sanity are not good bedfellows.
Thanks again for your interesting point of view.
Lilla .
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I think one problem with actually getting rid of plastic bags could be that people just accumulate a whole heap of the canvas bags instead. Reusable shopping bags are good if you're actually reusing them. But if they're starting to build up, they're not so good. Those bags actually take longer to break down than the plastic one. And I have to put my hand up here and say I'm a big culprit of this. I do try to reuse my bags all the time. But I've still ended up with a whole cupboard full of canvas shopping bags.
I used to like the old boxes that you would get in some supermarkets. You buy your groceries and back them in a box that has been left behind from things that the grocery is actually selling. No waste. I think Aldi still does this, but I don't shop there, so I'm not too sure. What happens to those boxes in supermarkets now? Do they just get added to all the other waste?
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You are a genius, of course the carboard boxes!
That*S the answer although I bet ole Johnny made a deal with India that they get all our cardboard boxes in exchange for thier cabbages or tie dyed cloth or something. Or perhaps to ethiopia in exchange for their beef, no joke that is what woolies if floggin most of the time, prime Ethiopian beef, whislt their citizens starve to death on the roadside in carboard cities they make from our packaging.
Maybe we sell it back to China in exchange for vegetables from Chna which I just discovered they fertilise with human fecal matter. Charming.
God knows, but it would be interesting to find out, and if nothing sinister is going on, then I think you have hit the nail onthe head for the cure to the problem. maybe a mixture of brown paper bags and carboard boxes.
Well done.
Do you get your groceries in those balck collapsable plastic trays?
I thought maybe we could put a deposit on them, say about four each week and just exchange the old for the new each time and pack the grocieries directly from there, but they need the bags for when they are picking the fruit and vegetables?
I haven*t checked out your blog profile to see where you are (I will now) but it certainly will be interesting to see where they go with this issue. Are you using Coles and if not I wonder if different companies will take on different options?
Obviously, more on this one later, then.
Thanks for stopping by.
Lilla
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Here in Australia they have not adopted the biodegradable plastic because of the harmful gasses and fumes they release as they *break down* (If you read the comments above, you*ll see what I mean and why) . . . however, it is something Kaula Lumpa has obviously either overlooked, or overcome?
Do you have local landfills there within (or on theoutskirts) of the cities themselves, or is the garbage shipped to somewhere else, way out int he country ~ or out of it completely?
Thank you for offering your experience. You have answered a question for me on how your part of the world has addressed the problem.
Very interesting to see how different parts of the world are working out this marauding madness.
Thanks for stopping in.
Lilla
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At the markets I work at our store orders biodegradable plastic bags and they do not cost much more. They are a real talking point amongst the market people who never even knew they existed.
On a sad note - when I was in Darwin a few years back in a river I saw a large fish dead and floating with one of those green material shopping bags through its gills. I wish I had a camera - it was a great case of irony unfortuantely at the expense of nature.
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Of course, now and then those brown bags would rip at the corners and the whole bag would fall to the ground. Anyone remember that?
Picking up broken pickle jars off the sidewalk?
David ...
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Yeah me too, it brings back such nostalgia now too, doesn*t it? Not to mention the 101 uses I always found for the ones that didn*t end up as papaer mache in the rain
I was very interested to learn that they have implemented the biodegradable plastic in Sydney. That is a forward move I was unaware of. Last I heard the environmentalists had caused a ban on them in most major cities.
Gosh nothing saddens me more, well there are a lot of things that do really, but sights like these also make me commit even harder to making as much difference as I can make ~ albeit in small ways ~ because I know if everyone does it, it will make a huge difference.
How about a nice sunset walk on the beach and some rotting epidemic filled plastic to go with wine?
Some people are evil and ignorant in the extreme, really, there is no other explanation.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, I think you may have the answer in the bio degradable option for my home deliveries, I guess it depends on what America or the EU is getting rid off, for half price this year, huh? (re: my earlier comment to Janet).
Lilla . .
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As I said to damo, *chuckle* who can*t remember picking up groceries all the way up the landing to their top floor unit, realising the bottom of the bags had fallen out, after trudging home in the rain from the bus stop. Aah the sweet memories of my youth and singledom.
But you are right, I also found so many uses for the ones that didn*t deteriorate into papaer mache. . . although I did also make a paper mache sculpture of one of my cats that died, out of them. . . and cutting holes in them and using them as party hats. Agreed.
Good memories there too
I am really hopeful that they come back instead of the biodegradable plastic (which is not much stronger from what I have seen).
Thansk for your great comment.
Lilla . .
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Ooh *swoon* there you are talking dirty to me again with words like *organised.* I always thought such a male was mythical. I*d better sit down.
*loool*
I will try that trick with my on line ordering and see what happens. It sounds promising, thanks.
Last week’s shop?
Disaster.
You have to order on line by clicking on the (add) button for loose vegetables and Fruit. For example, you click repeatedly : one, two, three, four for how many carrots you want.
Exactly what I did, but I hadn*t noticed I was clicking on the 3kg bags of juicing carrots instead of the single carrots.
I ended up with 12kg of juicing carrots! Well the neighbours did and we have three carrot cakes in the fridge, cooked by them in return for our kindness. . . and I had just lost all that weight *slapping my forehead*
Thansk again for the good tips
Lilla
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I think the best solution is for us to look at reusable options, like biodegradable, reusable shopping bags. Or buy a shopping cart that you can pull/push along. Even keep a few sturdy boxes in your car, if your doing a grocery shop, just pop them in the trolley.
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Welcome.
It is a fine line. Agreed. but both paper and plastic has tobe manufactured and both require much from the environment. Paper breaks down easier and releases less toxic fumes as it does, but is by no means without its problems too, albeit more minor.
I think you have hit the nail on the head here, although it still leaves the question facing the big stores of how they will deliver my home deliveries, *up in the air.*
Thank you for your comment.
Lilla . .
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It was in the U.S., for sure! Thing is, paper bags can be recycled out of any number of paper products so you're not "killing trees" when you use paper bags.
Me, I use them because I can fill them up with veg/fruit waste and chuck the whole thing into my compost pile.
I love the artwork idea too.
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Agreed. It is all mumbo jumbo now about chopping down trees, although back *then* it wasn*t because recycling paper hadn*t happened . . yet, nowadays they can even make my toilet paper without chopping downa single tree, so why not my grocery bag.
You are lucky you can still get them there, we haven*t seen one here in Oz since the 70*s and truly, I yearn to hold one again, no joke. As you say they were just so versatile and bingo bango, shopping gotten home, vegetables peeled and everything in the compost for the worms. . . I am with you, what could be better?
Thanks for sharing your views, we were wondering (further up the comment ssection there a bit) whether you still had the bags in the US, because they appear in all the movies. It is great to know that you do.
Lilla . .